Personalized, student-centred learning is the centerpiece of the B.C. Ministry of Education’s new plan to enrich student learning through “individualization” aimed at providing high quality teaching and learning, more flexibility and choice, and fuller utilization of the power of technology. Enriched high school programs like The Challenge Program at Vancouver’s Eric Hamber Secondary School seek to build upon previous gifted education programs in innovative ways. A recent school visit on October 25, as part of an International Dialogue study group, revealed that this program is “giving a home” to students labelled as “gifted” but remains very much a work -in-progress.
The Eric Hamber “Challenge Program,” while well-intentioned, is now somewhat unique because most Canadian school systems have tended to utilize ac
celerated academic programs, such as International Baccalaureate (IB) and Advanced Placement (AP), to achieve those purposes. Indeed, the steady growth of these two competing programs has supplanted many “gifted student” programs in high schools across Canada as in the United States. It also begs the fundamental question – which of the two programs provides a better challenge for academically-able high school students?
Surveying academic public high schools in the United States, the dominance of the IB and AP is abundantly clear. Choosing sides in the AP vs. IB debate sparks fierce debate in influential newspapers and magazines, like The Washington Post and US News and World Report and in the family homes of university-bound high school students in virtually every city and most towns of any size.
Advanced Placement Canada, based in Victoria, BC, holds sway in B.C. and Ontario and is now offered in 587 schools in every province and territory, except Nunavut. The International Baccalaureate now claims to have enlisted 320 IB World Schools, but only 147 offer the senior IB Diploma Program. University bound students and their parents are plied with the allure of gaining an advantage in seeking university admission and securing advanced standing in a few subjects. In a province like Nova Scotia, the IB has, since 2007, been sanctioned as the “official” high school enrichment program. Today, some 16 high schools are IB Diploma Program Schools, representing over 10 per cent of the Canadian total and the jurisdiction with the highest concentration of such programs in North America.
A highly influential 2007 study by the U.S. Thomas B. Fordham Institute has served as an important touchstone for savvy and academically-inclined students and parents. That study took a very favourable view of such academic courses offering “rigorous pre-college curriculum” in high school. It posed the critical question on the minds of students and parents –“Do the AP and the IB Deserve Gold Star Status?” Both of these programs, according to Chester Finn, “offer something very much needed in today’s secondary education system: high academic standards combined with rigorous exams aligned to those standards.”
Both the AP and the IB were proliferating because were meeting the demand for programs of “academic excellence” and filling a void in state school systems. “Students,” in Finn’s words,” are also expected to make sense of complex, and sometimes contradictory, materials; to write and defend their opinions about these materials intelligently; and to apply their knowledge in creative and productive ways. These are the skills that will serve them well in later years….” In that comparative analysis, the IB program came out slightly ahead, based upon a critical review of AP and IB courses in four subjects, English, mathematics, biology, and history. There was considerable dispute over the Fordham report’s assessment of Mathematics courses too heavily dependent upon technological tools like graphing calculators.
Advanced Placement courses once were totally dominant in the United States, a nation with some 22,000 high schools. First introduced in 1955, by 2006, over one million U.S. students took over 2 million AP examinations, including over 346,000(2008) in the most popular course, United States History. In Canada, by 2007, 491 high schools were offering 19,274 examinations in every province except P.E.I. AS of 2010, some 28.3 per cent of American high school students took an AP exam and 32.6 per cent of public high schools offered AP courses in the four core subject areas – English, mathematics, science and social studies. More recently, the IB is gaining ground, to the point where more than 778 American schools offer the IB Diploma Program.
Which is better at engaging students in academic challenges and at promoting critical thinking?
Most objective observers tend to give the edge to the IB because it is a fully-developed program encompassing academic athletic, cultural, and social development components. Seasoned education observer Jay Mathews of The Washington Post contends that “both programs are top notch.” When pressed to choose one over the other, he gave a slight edge to the IB. Why? In his words, “because the exams demand more writing, having no multiple choice exams as the AP exams do, and because the IB program includes a 4,000 word essay requirement that the AP lacks.” He noted, however, that in the United States, it was still easier to get college credits for AP exam scores because universities have been slower to accord recognition to the IB exam-based course results.
After helping to introduce the IB at Upper Canada College in 1997 and heading both a leading Canadian AP school and a leading IB school, I would also rate the IB as superior in terms of promoting deeper learning and student engagement. The IB focus on providing a full, well-rounded program gives it the decided edge and makes t5he AP look like just a mix and match menu of accelerated courses. The additional IB components, namely the Extended Essay, the Theory-of-Knowledge course, and Creativity-Action-Service (CAS), set it apart as a pretty thorough challenge for high school students. The IB requirement to conduct a 4,000 word Extended Essay (based upon original research) means, in many cases, students have to range far beyond high schools to find the latest research.
If the IB Diploma Program has a weakness, it is in the Fine Arts (Music, Drama, and Visual Art), where students tend to substitute out to take more science or mathematics these days with all the emphasis on STEM, preparation for Science, Engineering, Mathematics and Technology fields. Changes in the course selection framework giving more scope for taking Creative Arts would significantly strengthen the IB Diploma Program and make it much more attractive to students seeking to find what Sir Ken Robinson aptly describes as “the element” that opens lifelong doors to leading “a happy, meaningful, and productive life.”
Creating Challenge programs for “gifted students” and diverting increasingly rationed resources might well be questioned when one of the two best known academic enrichment programs offers such scope for pursuing academic excellence and exploring passionate interests outside the classroom.
Which of the two academic enrichment programs is best – AP or the IB? Do either of them provide enough scope for “personalized learning,” or for fostering curiosity and promoting creativity in students? That remains an open question.
Educhatter 
Having participated in the AP as a student, and worked in a school which somehow juggled BOTH programs (and also in two exclusively IB programs), I’m in agreement with you, the IB is a significantly more challenging program than the AP.
I do however disagree with your assessment of the IB as a program just for academically gifted children. Our school has some children who are perhaps on the weaker end of the spectrum, and who may not achieve the full IB diploma, but who I would say have a strong experience in school none-the-less. The most important requirement for the IB program IMHO is a willingness to put in the effort required.
We would be far better served if we abandoned both of them. They are elitist snob programs best suited to giving bragging rights to well healed parents at cocktail parties, They are streaming stacked on top of streaming. Any program that increases gaps, offers advantages, and reenforces existing inequalities does not belong within public education.
They are socialism in reverse, taking the tax money from ordinary people and spending it on elites. Spending money on those who do not need it is taking money from those who need it more.
You are so badly misinformed. As a life long Marxist I would not be willing to allow my son to participate in the kind of programme you describe.
IB is international, recognised by universities throughout the world. Once studied largely by children of internationally mobile parents, it enabled students to easily enter into higher learning establishments across the world. Many schools in the world only offer IB in the senior school, others offer it alongside the standard matriculating exam of their own eduction system. In the UK it is offered alongside A levels in a large number of state schools. What exactly is elitist about studying IB rather than say A levels if you want a university education? Are you saying that study to get into university is elitist? As a working class kid and the first from my family to go to university, I had to study A levels to get there. “Bragging rights”? How prejudiced you are. My son studies IB because it is on offer and he has the academic ability to do well in it. It may well help him secure a good university place; I hope so because the competition is fierce. I am sorry but I do not see why I should apologise to you or anybody else for allowing my son to exercise his ability to his full potential.
In Ontario Canada, on the other hand there is little rigor in the graduation process. No one teacher in a single department knows how their grades compare with any other class in a department, let alone in another school. Who knows how a 90% in one class compares to another class or another school in the Board or between Boards! Teachers and principals are able to massage marks at will with very little check. IB provides an internationally measurable standard
Advanced Placement courses are facing stiff criticism, especially in the wake of a recent stinging critique. Writing in The Atlantic (October 13, 2012), John Tierney described AP classes as a “Scam.”:
http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2012/10/ap-classes-are-a-scam/263456/
After teaching AP American Politics and Government for a decade, Tierney speaks with some authority on the whole matter. AP courses, in his view, are “a forced march through a preordained course” leaving little time for thinking or the pursuit of particular student interests. His most damning assessment: “The AP classroom is where intellectual curiosity goes to die.”
I taught “Gifted” classes for three years. IMHO about 10% of the kids in the classes were gifted in any way shape or form. The rest were anxious, pushy middle class climbers out to find an advantage for their kid without paying for it, so with smaller classes the poor were supporting the affluent. It was a first rate scam. My principal said “of course it is a total scam they are gaming the system but they are all so well politically connected… what can you do”.
I know all about IB. I fought for years to keep it out of TDSB or at least limit it. There should be no programs in a publically funded system designed to give “advantages” to some students.
To be quite frank, I advocate one single program in high school. In Ontario I would first abolish “academic and applied” from 9-10 and then abolish “university, college and workplace bound programs from 11-12. All students would be enrolled in a program similar to academic/university today.
Students would have technical and business electives but English Math French History Geography Science etc would be offered at only one level in each grade. Those who find it difficult would be supported with smaller classes, tutorial support and a slower timetable. We could anticipate that many would take % perhaps 6 years to finish the program.
Under this system, more students would go to university, more of the remainer would go to college, more of the remained from that would graduate and fewer would drop out.
The evidence is there. Read Jeanie Oakes and other researchers. In the “conservative” movie Waiting for Superman” the primary demand is abolishing what Americans call tracking and we call streaming.
The basic principle of a streamed system is low expectations for bottom streams.
Every program like AP, IB, Gifted, and the like polarizes results to the advantage of the already advantged. This should be antithetical to a public school system which IMHO “exists” to mitigate and some day eliminate achievement differences based on social class.
I disagree strongly with this response. ‘Gifted and Talented’ programs should be offered to students who need an accelerated program or more challenging coursework. Achievement levels are not confined to socioeconomic level of the student. Why should a gifted student’s education be stymied because of some notion that they are being offered more ‘advantages’. No, each student has the right to an education that is the best suited to the individual student’s capability. Whether that is accelerated, on-level or remedial coursework.
Paul’s last link provides a clue, that cause questions to popped up in my head. What was not mentioned, graduates of the IB or AP programs are virtually granted admittance in the top universities. Three examples – at the University of Victoria, Dalhousie University, and St. Francis Xavier University.
http://registrar.uvic.ca/recruiting/admissions/ibap2011.html
http://www.dal.ca/admissions/undergraduate/ap_ib_applicants.html
http://www.stfx.ca/apply/intl_baccalaureate/
It benefits the students, for admittance to the top universities. In the Toronto Star – “While AP and IB take different approaches to developing students, each offers significant benefits. Parents should consider which program best reflects their values and priorities for their child’s private school education to make the right choice.” http://www.thestar.com/specialsections/privateshools/article/1257123–enriched-programs-give-high-school-kids-edge-as-university-nears
In the Globe and Mail – “But the enriched curriculum is worth all the hard work, she says.
“For example, in our English class we have to pick texts that were not originally written in English, and in our theory of knowledge class we’re learning about Descartes and Plato,” she says. “It really is such a rich program and I get such a sense of satisfaction in knowing that while I’m getting this worldly, well-rounded education, I’m also going to be getting credits for these courses when I go to university.”
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/education/high-school-students-can-earn-university-credit/article600878/
So what are the percentages of students in AP and IB programs? Could not find the percentages, but it is a percentage under 10 percent. The next question to popped up, if so worldly, well rounded education that one obtains, do graduates of the IB and AP programs have interesting careers, and do they change the world for the better?
Well, a can of worms exploring the above question, and no doubt most will be surprise that AP and IB graduates are fighting among each other as to who are the top dogs. The IB graduates can be rewarded for being the top dog in intellectual snobbery, well at the same claiming global academic superiority over the AP program. “IB differs from AP in that it takes a holistic approach to preparing students for life after high school, building intellectual, personal, emotional and social skills to help them function in a globalized world. Established in 1968 as a non-profit education foundation, IB offers three programs for students aged three to 19 that emphasize international-mindedness, critical thinking skills and a positive attitude to learning. The programming is woven into a school’s existing curriculum, and students write exams that are graded not by their teachers, but according to international standards set out by IB.” http://www.thestar.com/specialsections/privateshools/article/1257123–enriched-programs-give-high-school-kids-edge-as-university-nears
On the chat forums, is where the action is concerning students of the IB and AP programs. The IB students, appears to be calling all other students, including the AP students, as not having the stuff, the intelligence, and ability. They claim, that the IB students are the elite students. Funny, since the IB program was formed to supply an education to the international diplomats’ children. However, it has shifted over time, as what the New York Times article stated, ” From its start in 1968 until 1976, the program was financed partly by Unesco. It is now associated with the United Nations Economic and Social Council, and until recently it endorsed the Earth Charter, a declaration of principles of sustainability that originated at the United Nations.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/03/education/03baccalaureate.html?pagewanted=1&_r=3
The New York Times article, cites what is obvious on the chat forums, IB graduates are being driven by the UN agendas, and promoting in part anti-Americanism. “Some parents say it is anti-American and too closely tied to both the United Nations and radical environmentalism.” Well-rounded education? I don’t think so, and the Truth About IB site, started by former students of IB, is quite the collection of articles about the IB program. “Welcome to Truth About IB. Before you travel any further into our site, we want to be totally upfront with our readers. Time and time again, supporters of IB have accused us of having a “hidden agenda” and an “axe to grind”. We prefer to think of it as a hatchet used to cut wasteful spending and yes, ours is sharpened, but our agenda is far from hidden. So to be perfectly clear and to put these accusations to rest, we’re going to spell it out.”
http://truthaboutib.com/home/aboutus.html
The next link is the comment page – quite the collection of comments. Here is a small slice of an IB student’s thinking – “I understand that the future will be in my hands and in the hands of my gene!
ration, and all I want for my generation is to make the world, not just the US, better. Maybe what the world needs are people with a world view.”
http://truthaboutib.com/proibcomments.html
A few more questions popped up in my head, because if IB graduates come out thinking that they are indeed intellectually superior, than why is the world in such a mess. So, the first question, what are the percentages of IB graduates. For 2012, “Results from the 2012 International Baccalaureate Diploma Programme examination session were issued today with over 119,000 students across the world receiving their diplomas or course results, an increase of over 8,000 from 2011.
On average, Diploma students scored 29.83 with 109 achieving the maximum score of 45 points.”
http://www.ibo.org/announcements/2012/ib-diploma-programme-2012-results-released.cfm
The second question, relating to the first question posed – what are former IB graduates doing in their careers and the world. Have they made a difference.
Wikipedia, kindly supplied it- Ironic, as it is – “This is a list of notable people affiliated with the International Baccalaureate, including IB directors-general, presidents of the IB Council of Foundation, and notable graduates of one or more of the three IB programmes.”
“Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab, Christmas Day Underwear Bomber, British School of Lome”
“Ray Douglas, a popular pornographic actor who has appeared in more than 300 movies with other alumni”
Yes you read it correctly, Wow, imagine proudly displaying the above two as being graduates from any high school? Terrorist or porn star, in the world of the IB program – acceptable careers to change the world.
If I was on one of the chat forums, I would be called racist, a moron or worst yet of limited intelligence. The Underwear bomber, had a few screws loose, and not a very smart one at that. But what do I know, I be dismissed by the IB graduates as not worthy to question their stances and perspectives.
To which brings me to another area, the dyslexics and how they are treated in the IB program versus the AP program. Lots of disrespectful talk coming from the IB students and graduates concerning the dyslexics on the chat forums. On the Truth About IB site, ” The most critical information regarding accommodations for
IB can be found in what was formerly called the Vade
Mecum, but which IBO has renamed the “Handbook of
Procedures”.
http://truthaboutib.com/ibandspecialed.html
For the IB program to tout the global perspective, they sure have a funny way to promote inclusiveness and understanding of others. “BO refers to extended time as being 25%, or 15 extra minutes per
hour. You will find this figure listed in the above documents. IBO
requires Form D1 (linked in the above Handbook of Procedures)
and medical documentation to be sent to Cardiff 12 months in
advance of the IB exam.
Parents of children with special needs should be aware of the
following caveat IBO includes in its literature:
“When requesting additional time it is important to bear in
mind that too much time may be tiring for a candidate
and, therefore, counterproductive. Similarly, more time
spent on a task does not necessarily improve the quality
of the response given by a candidate.”
Running to true form, like other schools public or private – in the K to 12 system – and more so for the senior grades – school administration that often denies the extra time, and if not that, reduce the amount of time. The AP program in the States, is much more generous because accommodation for LD or dyslexic is legally covered under the IDEA legislation.
Final thoughts, my preference is the AP program over the IB program. Why? The AP program produces a better educated person, within the values and culture of the country, the community and the school. The second reason, the AP does not have the hype and spin that is associated with the IB program. ““The IB Diploma encourages an international perspective, flexibility of mind and confidence in areas of learning which are essential for life beyond school and university. It is by far the most balanced and enlightened education one can offer a young person.”
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/9387014/Can-the-International-Baccalaureate-improve-English-education.html
Whereas the AP program, provides the easy access for admittance to universities, and the perks that go along with it, just like the IB program, but without the hype of ‘ flexibility of mind and confidence’, and ‘ by far the most balanced and enlightened education’.
At the Calgary School Board – the AP program statement – “The Advanced Placement (AP) Program® fosters excellence in student achievement. Students who take AP® are challenged to think for themselves and to engage the world critically and analytically in and outside of the classroom. The AP® Program prepares students for future success. Students can earn advanced credit or advanced standing at thousands of colleges and universities on the basis of their AP® achievements.”
The IB program statement – ” The International Baccalaureate (IB) Programme is a rigorous pre-university course of studies which meets the needs of highly motivated high school students. General objectives of the IB programme are to provide students with a balanced education, to facilitate geographic and cultural mobility and to promote international understanding through a shared academic experience.”
http://www.cbe.ab.ca/programs/prog-enrich.asp
Clement Attlee, the Leader of the Labour party in the UK and post war Prime Minister was asked by a Conservative politician while still in opposition, “I suppose if Labour wins the election you will abolish the First Class seats on the train?”
Attlee’s answer underpins my approach to public services. Attlee said “my good man, if Labour wins everybody will travel First Class.”
The entire approach of public education ought to be to introduce policies that will narrow differences in achievement, not exacerbate them. If we want to discuss an IB for everybody or AP for everybody policy, lets talk about it, otherwise scrap them both.
Then how would that be possible Doug? Last time, I checked and I would be in good company – “For example, in our English class we have to pick texts that were not originally written in English, and in our theory of knowledge class we’re learning about Descartes and Plato,” she says. “It really is such a rich program and I get such a sense of satisfaction in knowing that while I’m getting this worldly, well-rounded education, I’m also going to be getting credits for these courses when I go to university.”
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/education/high-school-students-can-earn-university-credit/article600878/
The last thing I would want to do in high school learning about Descartes and Plato, but there will always be some that would love it. My point is Doug, narrowing differences in achievement, the public education system would have to change drastically starting at the K level. Starters, all the children with difficulty in the 3 Rs. Approximately 40 percent of students are written off at some point from K to 5, as being the low achievers. All have difficulties in the 3 Rs, and thus are too busy with their overloaded memory processes where limited learning is taking place. Yet most learning issues can be corrected, if remediated early enough. Pity though, not being done in the public education system.
Not everybody likes to learn knowledge, of the old or the new. Plato may be the least useful knowledge to a person who is intent on being a metal sheet worker. Perhaps a first class education in the maths, the sciences and of course English and French.
It is what I have observed over the years, the dumbing down of the core subject curriculum. If not that, intensive curriculum content. without the proper supports for the knowledge gaps of students. In part, the blame can be put on the newer progressive instruction methods and the rest on lousy textbooks, that ends up frustrating students, rather then learning new material. It is not easy, to do calculus when the textbook is filled with dense text, but few visual aids to assist. Calculus must be done, with lots of practice.
IB or AP for everyone? What about a good solid education for each and every student, without the need to take remediation and upgrading for knowledge and skills that should have been taught in the first 12 years of schooling?
One small correction – http://www.truthaboutib.com was started by parents and a Board of Ed Trustee from Upper. St. Clair, PA and Locust Valley, NY, who tried to oust IB from their public school districts. The three founders are a Dr. of Oncology, an AP History teacher and a NY Real Estate Broker.
I am in the Hamber Challenge Program, and the beginning of the article strikes me as somewhat misinformed. Yes, it is an innovative program, but we also do several AP courses as part of the curriculum. We can also take other courses such as Philosophy and Critical Thinking 12. I won’t get into the AP/IB debate (I know our teachers have a very strong pro-AP view), but that was my impression upon reading the beginning of the article.
What a lot of nonsense. My two boys are both in an IB program and only do so because it’s there. No eltisism, no snobbery. With over 400 kids in the program it’s hardly an elitist program at their school. There are some superstars at r school but they exist at just about every school. What the IB teaches above all else is a work ethic. To meet the demands of the course the boys study every day, is that being gifted? No.. The IB that my boys are part of teaches them to be humble members of society where they have a duty to help others and to be a part of a global community. The IB that is being discussed by some here is so far from reality that I wonder if they’ve ever met anyone who has taken part in the program.
I have just finished my May 2013 IB Exams in Canada…. So let me give everyone some insight from someone that has actually experienced IB.
Perhaps we IB kids are snobby for the time being, but I believe we have a right to at least for the while we are in the program. (Note that I only attended the Diploma Program). But we also do realize that after the first year of university, our “upperhand” in university will fade due to the fact that the people who do stay in university already have the time management skills and study skills that allow kids to do well in university. You guys seem to forget that we are teenagers, we aren’t as developed as you people who are implying that you know everything about IB and AP. We pretty much give up our social lives to complete the program and we’re supposed to say “yes, we’re totally the same as the kids that have all the time in the world to go party and have fun”, “yes, we gave up 2 years of being a teenager to finish out EEs, IAs, IOPs etc.”. “Yes, we’re totally the same as AP kids.”
Also, us thinking AP is easier than IB…. isn’t it? AP’s pretty much a bit more in-depth than regular courses… the other school I attended had AP so I also have some experience in this field. Also, during AP, if the student taking it is talented academically, then they would have just as light a course load as a regular student. As opposed to IB, where no one has time for social interaction unless it is part of CAS, regardless of how good the student is.
Also, what I can see in my school (at least) is that the “smarter” kids ARE in IB. In my school we have honours classes before IB, and that pretty much weeds out the kids that are not qualified for IB. Perhaps many views on this post come from teachers and educators, but from a student’s point of view, the IB kids really are the ones who work harder and have higher expectations for themselves. Not one of us goes out and gets drunk and high – probably because we don’t have the time to :P.
The “regulars” kids do go out and party and get drunk and high. Not all of them, but many of them. My school is divided by IB and “regulars” – meaning the regular BC circulum not to sound snobby, but it’s just shorter to say- AND asian and white people. Not to be racist, but out of 52 IB candidates, there is 50 asian kids in my year. Why? probably because of asian culture, where we concentrate more on academics and the importance of getting into a prestigious university. Am I saying the caucasian kids don’t do well academically? No, but I’m just saying it’s a trend in my school. No, I’m not trying to cause a discussion on race, just more on the values of students who participate in IB and the ones that don’t.
Does it really help with getting into university and is it THAT highly regarded when we apply to university?
No, not really. I was told that with a predicted grade of 36, I would be able to get into any university in Canada. I understand it’s not an amazing, outstanding, wow grade, but I thought it was true.
Turns out I get waitlisted for the “most IB friendly school in Canada,” UBC. Apparently BC wide, there were many people with 38 who got waitlisted too. Although, I just got in admitted this month, but when considering that many students with 90% averages taking regulars and AP got admitted to UBC with huge scholarships before me or any IB students seems to indicate that this year, they aren’t so “IB friendly”. Especially since some of my friends have 40 and over and NO ONE got scholarships. And since we’re all overachievers, we all had pretty swell ECs.
And Upper hand? Doesn’t everybody want a upper hand, since more and more of the population have the ability to get into the prestigious universities, why not be smart and actually get in. And to the person that said stuff about eliminating AP and IB would lead to more people attending university? ANYONE can do well and get into university. Most universities choose IB and AP kids because they know that we have BEEN THROUGH a rigorous course and would probably do well transitioning from highschool to university…. personally, I think AP has less of this aspect, but has been around longer, so it’s almost on par with IB students. Like I said… IB is extreme.
My question is why are there so many IB haters?
Our course load is harder and we are pretty much FORCED to be well rounded (other than our social lives, but we get out of school a month before regular curriculum kids in Canada, so we can party all we want.) I think everyone is missing out on one required aspect of IB. The CAS program. We have to volunteer, excersize, and be creative WITH references to ensure you do it. Whereas the regular BC curriculum requires students to do 80 hours of activity without references, so walking to school even counts.
And only Science and Business kids come out of it is FALSSEEEE. Have you guys heard of IB Dance, IB Theatre, IB Arts etc..? I haven’t seen these programs since my year (in my school) only has the options of Geography, Psychology, Physics, Biology and Chemistry – thus Sciences and Socials kids, where almost 95% of the socials kids are going into business, but the year after us, now has IB Art. Are these subjects showing lack of creativity? NO.
And Peter above me. Are you sure you know your boys as your sons? or as a kid in IB at their schools… Pretty much everyone in IB brag at least a little bit. I can’t say we’re humble and I can’t think of an instance where we ever state we’re humble either. Welll….. unless your sons go to a international or private school where IB is required and they have little connection to regulars kids… thus they are unable to compare themselves to kids in different programs. We are pretty snobby, but with a right to be.
And between AP and IB, I can’t say IB is BETTER. but it is definitely HARDER. Don’t argue with me there…
Personally, I would prefer AP over IB and I would NEVER EVER do IB again. AP 1) is WAY easier, 2) allows for the presence of a social life 3) allows you to sleep more than 3 hours a night. I’m glad I did pretty well in IB, but if I had to choose between having a life and knowledge, I choose having a social life. But in regards of who has more braggin rights? IB. NEVER question a recent IB graduate in regards of intellectual superiority. You can do that after the first year of university. Be kind, and NEVER do that… unless you want to hear them rage.
I would never do regular courses if I weren’t forced to, because, like I said, who doesn’t want an upper hand? Especially since their qualified for the spot. Many regular kids can’t handle it, not matter how well they did, and crack under the pressure. IB kids know how it’s like. It’s not even just the knowledge we get, it’s the extreme workload we have been through that gets us though university.
***** Just finished IB exams, so blame any spelling/ grammar errors on lack of sleep.
Hi Cat, it would be awesome if you would update how you do in first year university, especially compared to kids who did regular high school curriculum. My daughter is going into grade 8 this year and I really want to enroll her in an IB program for high school. From the sound of your post, you wouldn’t recommend that. But maybe when you see how well you do in university you’ll change your mind. Thanks!!
I’m going to UBC for BSc in December. Now that I’ve calmed down, I don’t have that much internal rage towards IB anymore, hahaha. Let me just say, you have to make sure your daughter has the time management skills for it.
If I had to pick again, I’d probably do PARTIAL IB, 3 higher levels. I’m not sure if you get all the credit, but if your daughter gets high scores, she gets credit for it. AP also gets credit, but it’s only half the value of what IB transfer credits are. personally, as a science student, I need 18 arts credit to get my bachelors, but now I don’t have to do any arts courses. (but I am out of interest). Also, I looked at the descriptions of my 3 biology courses, and most of it sounds exactly like what I learned in Biology Higher Level.
And for final marks, I definitely dropped… quite a bit, but I wasn’t revoked 🙂 Most ppl do, I guess, so that’s a given.
And… if you’re actually planning to put your child in IB, please put her in a private or international school that has properly trained IB teachers. I went to a public IB school and we thought 40 was amazing as we had an average of like 33. The private schools in the city had like an avg 40. Also. My Math SL teacher screwed us over. Didn’t know how to teach calc, didn’t teach half of it and told us to watch videos online.
– see if partial IB courses still get full transfer credits in uni
– she’s only grade 8, aka 13, let her choose, not you. If there are honours courses, ASK her to take them (though it’s not even much of an advantage going into IB). Don’t make her take it if she’s even a little hesitant.
– see if AP is an option
Let me state where everyone went from my grade 12 year:
Full IB: the majority of us IB kids got into UBC, UofT, Waterloo, York, McGill etc, and some pretty good schools in the states. Though there was a few that didn’t get the diploma, none of us got revoked. Though I guess those kids knew they weren’t going to the top of the top canadian schools cause they applied for Capilano, SFU, and UVic.
Partial IB: not very many of those, and I’m only counting the ones that took 2 or 3 courses. One didn’t get into any universities and I’m thinking his average was like 80% so I don’t know what happened there… one is going to UBC science and one to U of T International Relations. And the rest are going to SFU.
The ones that only took IB Psychology: I don’t consider them IB, cause Psych was so easy. And I just slept in that class and got 97%. They are going to like SFU (the keener ones), UFV, etc.
Regulars: It’s funny, none of the regular kids got into a top 50 Canadian school. Oh, well, with the exception of ONE girl going to UBC arts that seemed to try harder than any of the IB kids… (it was a little annoying) Though a few are going to SFU, and I think that’s pretty good. The majority that are going to university are going to UFV and such… I’m not trying to sound like I’m bragging, but the keener academic kids really did choose to do the IB. The rest are the party goers, weed smokers… yea…
TBH, my IB year complained A LOT, and thus a ton of kids from first year IB dropped to partials. HUEHUEHUE.
Does IB get you to the Ivy Leagues? ERRMMMM. I’ve only heard of ONE girl from my school 2 years ago that got into Standford, and she didn’t get any scholarship. And that wasn’t from IB as her marks were only like 40 or less. It was her ECs. She also decided to go to McGill…
There was a guy also 2 yrs ago that got 44/45 and he went to waterloo. There were a few other girls in prior years that got 40,41,42 and they went to UBC, and didn’t get into ivys. And yea they all did SATs…
BUT there are people from other schools that have gotten into UPenn, Oxford and Stanford. 🙂 But that’s from their ECs, starting charities and such.
Since anyone that gives a damn about school can get 95% plus avg in regular classes, universities are considering ECs more and more. So if you want your daughter to get into good schools the MAIN thing is high/average marks, and AMAZING ECs. Go to Africa, volunteer. Arrange Food Drives. Doing IB limits those opportunities due to restriction of time. Look at me, I can barely survive in the world… but then again, that might be cause I live in the suburbs.
Wow, thank-you so much for that feedback!! My daughter definitely has the work ethic and determination that IB students require. She sometimes gets teased about it by other kids. I thought that being in an IB program with other kids like her would be good for her. We have a really good public high school here in my city in Ontario that has a very good IB reputation.
For what it’s worth, I would be very proud of myself if I were you. To get through such a tough program proves that you can do anything you set your mind to. I’ve heard that students who completed IB or AP find first year university MUCH easier than students who were in regular curriculum courses.
If you have the time and you remember this post, please send me an update on your university experience. I’m really curious to know if it’s true that first year university is easier for students who took IB.
Thanks again for responding and best wishes for a fantastic university experience!!
I understand that IB has a reputation for being harder more vigorous and definitely more time consuming than any other type of course. However, I must say that AP is just as tough. Many people don’t see that because they look at AP from a further stand point and miss many details. In AP courses we too abandon our social lives and embrace sleepless nights….and I don’t mean 3 hours or less I mean sleepless especially if we’re taking two or more AP courses. The fact that we have too have to put in such an extraneous effort in order to finish 3 (I took 3 courses) courses by March in order to study for their exams which serve as preparation for the actual AP exams, is quite crazy on its own. Now IB may have more sophisticated requirements but AP has straining logistics as well and requires an incredibly high demand as well as many great sacrifices. I understand that the state of affairs listed above may not apply to all schools but it was certainly applied to mine and has caused numerous breakdowns and alarmingly high stress levels.
[…] Students would have technical and business electives but English Math French History Geography Science etc would be offered at only one level in each grade. Those who find it difficult would be supported with smaller … […]
If I had my way I would abolish IB. It IS an elitist program and belongs in private education if anywhere. Public education is not about separating kids (streaming and tracking) it is about keeping kids together for a common experience as much as possible.
Well, thank heavens you don’t. Let’s stop enforcing our opinions as outright facts, shall we? The notion that the IB/AP program is some elitist cult is merely a figment of your imagination. Clearly you did not qualify to enroll in a program with superior education, so you devote your life to fighting against bright and promising students whom you envy. Have a nice day. 🙂
What is wrong with you? So,you’re saying that students who are clearly ahead in terms of intelligence, ability to cope with hard work, and are bored by regular classes should be forced to be in the same group of students who are going to work at fast food joints? The IB school I’m attending is the fairest of any school and is completely IB. They make us write an entrance exam, submit middle school scores, and show a principal recommendation letter. All IB schools should follow that policy.
Abolishing public access to specialized programs is an economic step backwards for the majority of families. Public enrichment was developed in the mid-twentieth century to help level the playing field for poor and middle class students. The rich have and always have had other options.
BTW I would tell boards that whatever French program they choose (core, Immersion, extended) it is same program for all. I support extended for all.
We should do that for sports then, too, eh doug? According to your philosophy we should keep all the future Wayne Gretsky’s together with all the other kids, no matter if the others don’t have any talent or interest, for the sake of experiencing the sport together… And we shouldn’t allow the less talented types, like the Michael Jordan’s of the world (he reports spending hours every day practicing after he failed to make the high school basketball team), who are prepared to sacrifice their social lives, to work hard, overcome obstacles and become better.
And I guess for the truly brilliant kids, like the 15 year old boy with Autism, Jacob Barnett, who will be attending that new specialty Masters degree program in Waterloo for some of the best young science minds in the world, who only came out his shell because he could attend astrophysics lectures starting when he was 3 years old (his parents were told he’d be lucky to learn to tie his shoes), well, according to you they should be left to stay in their shells because it’s all about the experience of being together, and not about a child’s specific interests or talents or their intellectual needs.
My daughter despises homework and could never do an IB program. I have no idea whether she’ll have the interest or capacity to do AP courses (she was fostered and adopted, and had a number of life traumas before age 3). But that doesn’t mean other kids shouldn’t have the choice or opportunity, especially the economically deprived ones. It’s not about lowering the ceiling to narrow the achievement gap. It’s about raising the floor. Start early, have high expectations, and work with a child’s strengths rather than focussing on deficits. It’s a philosophy that also works to help young people recover from serious mental illness.
Well , I guess If we only consider the students grooming environment , best extra curriculum activities and just want that they should know how to perform with collaboration then (International Baccalaureate) IB is the best place .
http://www.tsrs.org/campus/ib/
My teacher constantly points out the difference between “education” and “school”. I think that what the AP does, is make a harder school. Thats good- it pushes students to go beyond, to reach their full potential, and learn how to apply a larger basis of knowledge to harder situations. However, I believe there is a fine line between hard, and complex. This is why I think that the IB is better, in a sense. It allows you to constantly observe various perspectives, and see things with a globalized view. Its not just ” harder”, its more than that the IB goes beyond just school, it connects to the whole world around you and society in general, and allows you to develop extraordinary life skills which can be applied to your learning. As it is more “inquiry based”, I think that it unlocks more critical thinking that not only assesses the question or situation, but allows you to appreciate the fact that there are SO many ways someone could look at the question as well. Its hard to explain, but I think IB goes much deeper, and really is based on the fact that you never ever stop learning in life, not after school not after your test- life is a continual education. And here we have AP, making a harder school. I’m not saying it is bad, but I am saying they are different.
And all of this shmuck about having gifted programs being bad is a complete load of BS. There are those with fixed mindsets, vs. Growth mindsets. Are you challenged by others success? Do you turn away when things are too challenging? Do you think what you are like can never change, or that you are just bad at something? Or do you embrace challenges and know that there is always room to grow? If other people are put down by the innitiatives others are taking to get somewhere in their life, thats there problem. This only shows that those such people have fixed mindsets, and can’t appreciate the messages of programmes such as IB. It is not to classify students as better than others(although the AP seems to do this a little more), it is to actually put them in an environment where they get a true education, not just school. Where they really learn. There is NO STUDENT who can not do the IB. Everyone has the same potential to success in school and in life. It is whether or not you have a fixed or growth mindset in your schoolwork and the way you act and think, that decides whether you will grow to have the ability to think outside the box. YOU decide. If anything, these gifted programs encourage students to change their thought process in this way. To see what I mean, search up growth vs fixed mindset you will find a picture somewhere.
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